11 HN users recommended this talk8 months2018–2025score 9.5
Years with an HN recommendation, 2007–2026
HN keeps recommending it as an inspirational, funny talk on running a long-lived indie studio and what Steam provides for its 30% cut.
Jeff Vogel of Spiderweb Software gives a GDC 2018 retrospective on surviving as an indie game maker since 1994, from shareware days through Steam. It covers business realities, costs and sustaining a comfortable living without chasing riches.
“this talk is legendary and inspirational to aspiring game devs” (HN, 2023)
Jeff Vogel from Spiderweb Software have an awesome retrospective on his games and company at GDC 2018: "Failing to Fill: The Spiderweb Software Way" [this video]
Retrospective on Spiderweb Software's games and company
Jeff Vogel from Spiderweb Software gave an awesome retrospective on 24 years of creating old-school-style fantasy RPGs at GDC 2018: "Failing to Fill: The Spiderweb Software Way" [this video]
24-year retrospective on old-school RPG development
Speaking about GDC, if you're into game development or just curious, this talk is legendary and inspirational to aspiring game devs (and very intertaining to boot): [this video] "In this GDC 2018 talk, Spiderweb Software's Jeff Vogel presents a retrospective on his company's history and how they've managed to stay in the game-making business since 1994."
Retrospective on Spiderweb Software surviving in indie games since 1994
There are probably economies of scale, sure, which is part of why Epic can get away with a lower fee for now. But it's also just business. They know how much it costs without economies of scale, and that sets a floor. [this video] Here's a talk from a very old indie company, there's one section talking about how they existed pre-Steam (and other stores they use since Steam's not exclusive) and appreciate what it's enabled.
Great talk from the author: [this video] > In this GDC 2018 talk, Spiderweb Software's Jeff Vogel presents a retrospective on his company's history and how they've managed to stay in the game-making business since 1994.
Retrospective on staying in game-making since 1994
I recall that post (I've been a fan of JV's work, and his blog, for a long time!) but that's ten years old now and the market has gotten more competitive. I think that post is actually pre-Steam, though might push it the other way--I recall that he did really well for himself early on after going to Steam. He has a really good GDC talk that goes into more detail and might shed light on why he operates the way he does: [this video]
The author did a great GDC talk about being an indie developer in the brick and mortar, pre-steam days. He talks at one point about how people had to buy a shareware cd from some kiosk, then phone him, argue about the price, mail him a cheque or money order, then wait for a cdrom in the mail to buy a game from him back then, but he made it work and is still going [this video]
I saw his talk on GDC (Game Developers Conference) about this exact topic - it made it to my bookmarks list! It's called Failing to Fail: The Spiderweb Software Way[0] for anyone curious. [0] [this video]
You’re spot on about the chances in a hit-based industry. That said, Jeff Vogel has spoken at length [0] about how he’s stayed in business for 30-ish years with a middle class lifestyle. Including the lean times. I think it’s pretty inspirational that there’s a way to make game development work if your primary goal isn’t getting rich, but to have a comfortable life and enjoy what you do. [0] [this video]
Jeff Vogel on sustaining a comfortable game-dev living for 30 years
I'm pretty sure it's not the talk you're thinking of, but Jeff Vogel (who has been mostly-successfully making indie games consistently since 1995) mentions it in this GDC vault talk: [this video] They were able to stop paying a third employee when they went to Steam. That's a lot of value to the business.
[this video] And I don't, tbh, have an opinion about the rest of your post; I'm talking about Steam, not Apple. But, having gone down this road myself (and why I cite the Jeff Vogel talk): you would almost certainly spend more than 30% on customer support and payment processing and fraud protection and accounting. Or you would do it incorrectly, which is worse. And, regardless, you'd expose yourself to a way smaller audience. It seems to me to be a good way to shoot yourself in the foot for no gain (and as an app developer myself I certainly wouldn't bother).
A nice related video is his GDC 2018 talk "failing to fail", over on [this video] I don't particularly like the art that his games use (and I also grew up on Ultima) but I'm 100% behind the idea that if "trying for better art" (and note that "better" in no way guarantees "something people will call good") means putting the entire business at risk, only someone with no sense of responsibility and no understanding of the value of a dollar would take that risk. Not in year one, and still not in year 25.
> I don't have that much cash on hand. Nowhere near. After watching his recent very interesting GDC talk* - he mentioned high six-figures income ($800K+). I guess he spends a lot :) EDIT: * [this video]
I do tend to think 30% is rather excessive but it's still standard across multiple things.. and I remember this talk [this video] years ago from an indie guy, just a minor remark around the 27 minute point on how when you factor in the cost of doing everything steam does for you on your own, it suddenly isn't such a terrible cost. I have quibbles with that suggesting an all-or-nothing environment when that isn't the case, but the deal only gets even sweeter if you can take advantage of more of steam's offerings besides just being a place to host and sell your game. On the consumer side too, steam makes things pretty frictionless. I can't say literally all of my budget on games is through steam, but it's over 95%. I was also happy that their steam deck I got recently, in addition to helping the linux ecosystem in theory, is actually not a piece of junk like the librem phone I finally got delivered this year and so helps it in reality too. (Though in the librem case that was expected even at pre-order time.)
Indie dev argues Steam's 30% cut is reasonable given services provided
Check out the games by Jeff Vogel [1] of Spiderweb Software [2]. His games may not be pretty to look at but they feature worlds that are full of life and rich with detail. Monsters attack and damage towns, destroy buildings, leave citizens homeless and shopkeepers jobless, and may eventually wipe towns off the map. Meanwhile, the world is also full of outside areas to explore and dungeons to plunder. However, no town is safe . Spend too much time delving dungeons and you may return to a smoking ruin instead of a town. Or you may arrive in the middle of a monster attack on the town and get to participate in its defence! Of course, the townsfolk aren't helpless either. They have town guards, soldiers, and even imperial wizards who arrive to help out. The wizards even create magical barriers to patch up the holes in the town wall! As for how the games play, they're very reminiscent of old school Ultima games such as Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar. As a fan of UO, you may really enjoy some Spiderweb Software games. No multiplayer though, these are strictly single-player turn-based affairs. [1] [this video] [2] [link]
Cited as a source on Jeff Vogel's Spiderweb Software games
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